How should death be handled?
-
- Intellectuality
- Posts: 855
- Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 0:38
- GolfHacker
- Vortininja
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 22:50
- Location: San Diego
- Contact:
Definitely Galaxy-style for me. It's comforting to be able to save before trying something dangerous or foolhardy. Besides, I get very frustrated if I can't get past a tough obstacle and have to keep going way back to start over. It's no fun to have to play through 1-2 minutes just to get back to where I was, try it again, die, have to go back again and replay that same 1-2 minutes, etc.
Extra lives are not totally worthless with such a system, though - those players who choose not to save anywhere but the map will appreciate the extra lives. But for the majority (who voted for Galaxy-style), the extra lives probably won't mean anything.
Also, I think most players nowadays prefer a few hit points instead of instant death. At least, that's the feedback I've gotten for my Dirk Dashing platformer. So that's something I've changed for Dirk Dashing 2.
Extra lives are not totally worthless with such a system, though - those players who choose not to save anywhere but the map will appreciate the extra lives. But for the majority (who voted for Galaxy-style), the extra lives probably won't mean anything.
Also, I think most players nowadays prefer a few hit points instead of instant death. At least, that's the feedback I've gotten for my Dirk Dashing platformer. So that's something I've changed for Dirk Dashing 2.
Yeah, GolfHacker, you're one of the few that understand the "being able to choose" aspect of Galaxy style with lifes.
I assume, Kin9_Duk3, you're asking this for your keengine. It seems that most people have forgotten what 'to choose freely' means, so why not make an achievement for playing without inlevel saving, you were planning achievements already, weren't you?
I assume, Kin9_Duk3, you're asking this for your keengine. It seems that most people have forgotten what 'to choose freely' means, so why not make an achievement for playing without inlevel saving, you were planning achievements already, weren't you?
You crack me up little buddy!
- Deltamatic
- Vorticon Elite
- Posts: 1418
- Joined: Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:55
- Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
*says Yes countless times*GolfHacker wrote:Definitely Galaxy-style for me. It's comforting to be able to save before trying something dangerous or foolhardy. Besides, I get very frustrated if I can't get past a tough obstacle and have to keep going way back to start over. It's no fun to have to play through 1-2 minutes just to get back to where I was, try it again, die, have to go back again and replay that same 1-2 minutes, etc.
Extra lives are not totally worthless with such a system, though - those players who choose not to save anywhere but the map will appreciate the extra lives. But for the majority (who voted for Galaxy-style), the extra lives probably won't mean anything.
Also, I think most players nowadays prefer a few hit points instead of instant death. At least, that's the feedback I've gotten for my Dirk Dashing platformer. So that's something I've changed for Dirk Dashing 2.
- GolfHacker
- Vortininja
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 22:50
- Location: San Diego
- Contact:
For me, it really depends on difficulty and level length. If levels relatively short and uncomplex, I'm fine with only saving on the map. There comes a point in difficulty and level length, though, where its just no longer fun to play the game because its too hard. A checkpoint system is a viable option, but I prefer saving anywhere.
Similarly, there comes a point in level difficulty when having lives might as well be removed because its just too difficult or annoying to accumulate and use them in any meaningful way. Although I guess it wasn't intentional or an ideal way to win, in A New Dope I had to ration my lives and spend them in levels which I could accumulate a lot iq before dying. This didn't encourage to die on purpose, I still tried to beat the levels, but it added a new level of strategy for me which I enjoyed.
Saving anywhere does reduce the challenge of levels, but if the player is like me, saving and loading is usually more of an unnecessary hassle than a way to avoid losing lives and breezing through a game. I'm a lazy saver, I hate having to hit escape, go to the save section and actually save, and I hate having to go into the menu to load a save. That said, I would never want a quick save/load button, that just encourages excessive saving/loading and reduces the challenge and gameplay value. In short, I'm often either too lazy to save or forget to save. On average, I save in-level in Keen galaxy episodes 1 to 4 times. Often I'd rather lose a life and restart the level than reload a save.
Having a health meter is similar, but with the added dynamic of enemy and hazard interaction. If there aren't enough ways to die and if the enemy behavior is too 'simple', a health bar would really ruin the gameplay. In something like episode smile, though, I would LOVE a health bar. But in a mod like Keen X, a health bar would just be excessive.
Similarly, there comes a point in level difficulty when having lives might as well be removed because its just too difficult or annoying to accumulate and use them in any meaningful way. Although I guess it wasn't intentional or an ideal way to win, in A New Dope I had to ration my lives and spend them in levels which I could accumulate a lot iq before dying. This didn't encourage to die on purpose, I still tried to beat the levels, but it added a new level of strategy for me which I enjoyed.
Saving anywhere does reduce the challenge of levels, but if the player is like me, saving and loading is usually more of an unnecessary hassle than a way to avoid losing lives and breezing through a game. I'm a lazy saver, I hate having to hit escape, go to the save section and actually save, and I hate having to go into the menu to load a save. That said, I would never want a quick save/load button, that just encourages excessive saving/loading and reduces the challenge and gameplay value. In short, I'm often either too lazy to save or forget to save. On average, I save in-level in Keen galaxy episodes 1 to 4 times. Often I'd rather lose a life and restart the level than reload a save.
Having a health meter is similar, but with the added dynamic of enemy and hazard interaction. If there aren't enough ways to die and if the enemy behavior is too 'simple', a health bar would really ruin the gameplay. In something like episode smile, though, I would LOVE a health bar. But in a mod like Keen X, a health bar would just be excessive.
- GolfHacker
- Vortininja
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 22:50
- Location: San Diego
- Contact:
Having a health system does open up some possibilities in level design. For Dirk 2, I'm finding that I can add some very challenging and exciting areas to my levels without worrying that instant death will make it frustrating and/or impossible for some players to progress.Ceilick wrote:Having a health meter is similar, but with the added dynamic of enemy and hazard interaction. If there aren't enough ways to die and if the enemy behavior is too 'simple', a health bar would really ruin the gameplay. In something like episode smile, though, I would LOVE a health bar. But in a mod like Keen X, a health bar would just be excessive.
Of course the temptation for the player is to just give up a health point or two so you don't have to run the gauntlet. But I've balanced that by awarding a sizable end-level bonus for not taking any damage.
- The Keen Commander
- Vortininja
- Posts: 199
- Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 18:42
- Location: Atchison, KS (hometown: Olympia, WA)
I'm personally more in favor of Galaxy-style saving. Prior to the Keen 4 competition, I saved very frequently. Now I save less due to that and trying out a lot of Vorticon mods. There's a certain challenge that I enjoy in trying to beat a level without saving during it, but I still feel it should be an option, especially on difficult levels (for example: Lava Falls in Keen 8, although I played it Keen 4 competition style and beat it, so it isn't an absolute necessity to save, just a hassle not to). I had a lot of trouble beating Keens 1-3 because of map only saving, and they just haven't appealed to me as much due to that fact. That said, I think the way the levels are set up in Keens 1-3 are specifically tailored to that type of gameplay, whereas Keens 4-6 (and 7-8 ) are set up to be more the type where saving is almost a necessary at times. If Keen 1 had in-level saving, it would be far too easy, and if Keen 4 had only map saving, it would be much more difficult (I died 500 times beating Isle of Fire on hard...'nuff said... )
Checkpoint styled saving I dislike...the only Keen game I know of with it is Commander Keen and the Dream Machine, which is an excellent game, but which I have yet to beat. I would much prefer to be able to save, instead of having a limited number of lives and returning to the beginning when I run out. At least in map only saving if you completely run out of lives, you can return to a map save and continue from there. I'm not a fan of the checkpoint-styled games in general. I also don't like the idea of hit points, since the joy and frustration of Keen (and consequently, the challenge) for me has always been that you can die at any time from anything. It makes it much more exciting than games like Duke Nukem or Hocus Pocus (great games, just different style) for example where you can take some hits and keep going. To give Keen hit points would just feel wrong and would take away one of the things that makes it so unique...and although I agree it does open up level design possibilities, being one-hit kill leaves the secret areas for only the most skilled (or foolhardy ) to discover...a feature of Keen that I absolutely love.
In short ( ), the different styles of saving are tailored to game type and work well for their subsequent games. Sure, Galaxy-style saving can be abused, but moderately-skilled Keeners like myself sometimes need that handicap. I say leave things as they are.
Checkpoint styled saving I dislike...the only Keen game I know of with it is Commander Keen and the Dream Machine, which is an excellent game, but which I have yet to beat. I would much prefer to be able to save, instead of having a limited number of lives and returning to the beginning when I run out. At least in map only saving if you completely run out of lives, you can return to a map save and continue from there. I'm not a fan of the checkpoint-styled games in general. I also don't like the idea of hit points, since the joy and frustration of Keen (and consequently, the challenge) for me has always been that you can die at any time from anything. It makes it much more exciting than games like Duke Nukem or Hocus Pocus (great games, just different style) for example where you can take some hits and keep going. To give Keen hit points would just feel wrong and would take away one of the things that makes it so unique...and although I agree it does open up level design possibilities, being one-hit kill leaves the secret areas for only the most skilled (or foolhardy ) to discover...a feature of Keen that I absolutely love.
In short ( ), the different styles of saving are tailored to game type and work well for their subsequent games. Sure, Galaxy-style saving can be abused, but moderately-skilled Keeners like myself sometimes need that handicap. I say leave things as they are.
I'd like to get a Futurama mod going. Here's what I've got so far:
http://www.pckf.com/viewtopic.php?t=2152
http://www.pckf.com/viewtopic.php?t=2152